ESS 609: Mental Health & Wellness

Laura Vogt:
Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of the Not So Secret Guide to Being a Berkeley Engineer. I’m your host, Laura Vogt, the Associate Director of Marketing and Communications in the College of Engineering. This week, I’m excited to have Christine Zhou from… She’s one of our staff psychologists from Counseling and the Psychological Services, or CAPS. Christine, why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit more about what you do here at Berkeley?

Christine Zhou:
Sounds good. Thank you very much for inviting me. My name is Christine Zhou. I do have a Chinese name, Shuangmei, and actually means two pieces of jade. I go by Christine because that’s easy for students to remember. I’ve been on this campus, actually working at Berkeley Engineering, for a little over 10 years. When I first got hired, I think at that time, the college reached out and says, “Can we have a staff psychologist over at Engineering, and set up a satellite office? And so it would be easier for students to access services.” And I volunteer immediately. I was like, “Cool. I want to go. I like to work with engineers.” And so, that’s how the story began.

Christine Zhou:
Now, it’s been about 10 years, and our office has grown. Right now, we have three actually, counselors, and Denise, and Yi. You can find our information on the website. I’m sure Laura is going to link it. We provide counseling services to students, but also we consult with faculty and staff, sometimes we provide training. So, yeah, that’s about me.

Laura Vogt:
And you’re able to offer in-person counseling to undergraduate and graduate students, correct?

Christine Zhou:
Yeah. That’s a really good question. I mean, because of the COVID, the services has changed quite a bit. In the past, up till right now, what we’ve done is that our services are virtual, so there’s pros and cons. And the pros is actually, it used to be, unless you’re in-person, you can’t talk to us. And so, that restricts, and for example, if some of the students went home in the summer, they won’t be able to talk to us. And I’ve had students also say that sometimes it’s easier, they can take a walk on campus, and then same time, and so they’re doing two things, they’re getting some exercise, fresh air, get a break. And then, at the same time, getting counseling.

Christine Zhou:
We are not completely sure for fall. We might just continue to do a hybrid. And so, right now, in order to access service, you need to call one of our lines, and it’s listed on a website, and so we’ll have a brief chat, and depending what you need, and also who is available, because our staffs are working a hybrid schedule, some days we’re on campus and some days we’re not, so we’ll arrange something that actually works for you. And if it’s an urgent crisis situation, we highly encourage you to actually walk over to Tang Center. They’re still open the same day walk-in services for students in crisis. And so, that hasn’t changed, and it’s mostly the regular appointment, and has been more hybrid model, rather than in-person.

Laura Vogt:
And let’s make sure that everyone that needs to know, or wants to know, the engineering website for counseling is coesandbox.berkeley.edu/counseling.

Laura Vogt:
I was thinking this year, as we did our interview, I really was thinking about how a lot of the students make these pro-con lists when they chose to come to Berkeley, when they were choosing their scheduling, and so I thought it would be interesting to look at mental wellness and counseling through that same light of a pro-con list. My issue, when I first was talking about it, is talking about con, because I really don’t think there is necessarily a con about counseling, and mental health, and mental wellness at all, so I like what you did when we talked about it, made it into more of a con/myth.

Christine Zhou:
Yeah, actually I thought it was a really interesting idea. I mean, obviously, I’ve been advocating for mental health all my life and of course I can tell you a hundred reasons why you should go talk to a counselor, but this actually pushes me to really think it through, because I’ve worked with engineering students for about 10 years, and I was just thinking then over the years, based on the kind of experiences I’ve talked to student, what are some of the challenges? Why this is such a great services? Why a lot of students are hesitant to access?

Christine Zhou:
First of all, I want to acknowledge that many of us didn’t really grow up knowing what counseling is about. And often, we associate counseling or mental health with some kind of negative connotations. For example, I can speak from my example, I was born and raised in China, so when I was growing up, we don’t even have a major in Psychology in college.

Christine Zhou:
I remember, when I left China, this was in 2000, it sounds ages ago, my university, for the first time, started a major undergrad in Psychology. And so, I think that just speaks to it’s a Western concept. I mean, if you think about the first people who do psychoanalysis, and Freud, and stuff, and so I kind of want to acknowledge that, and maybe a lot of the communities, and a lot of cultures, I mean, it doesn’t mean that we don’t care about emotional health, but we probably use different kind of languages, we have different ways to think about it. For example, growing up, and we do a lot of almost like a mindfulness, meditation-type of practice, but we never really label it like mental wellbeing or wellness. It’s probably more part of the culture, part of the tradition, and also a lot of the Buddhist philosophy.

Christine Zhou:
I kind of want to say, I don’t necessarily feel like when we talk about counseling, a lot of people will say, “Oh yeah, I know what you’re talking about.” A lot of the students coming from communities, or family, or cultural background, and this is something foreign. And there’s a lot of stigma associated with it. And I’ve heard my students saying, “I don’t want to be called crazy,” or, “If I come to talk to you, I kind of feel weak because that means that I can’t really make things happen,” or, “I’m lazy. I’m too lazy. I’m too weak,” so there’s a lot of that sort of… I should have no… People feel like it’s not more acceptable.

Christine Zhou:
I’ve had student telling me, “I’d rather have a breaking bones or a broken leg,” and I walked into the classrooms and everybody, GSI faculty member, everybody will be like, “Oh, how are you doing?” Kind of like visibly show support, but if I have struggle with depression or anxiety, it’s something invisible. I mean, it’s not something that I want to share, or I have a lot of shame, or stigma. I don’t know how people are going to judge me. How are they going to perceive me? And so, I would say, it is not like one of those things that people will jump on it.

Christine Zhou:
And also, I think it takes a lot of, tremendous amount, of courage just to acknowledge that I’m struggling and I need help. I’ve had students told me that, “I found out about your services freshman orientation. You came to one of those big orientation group, but I didn’t really worked up the courage to come to you, talk to you, until two weeks until graduation. And over the years I’ve thought about accessing the services. And then, as soon as I walked over, I’m like, ‘Yeah, maybe I don’t need it.'”

Christine Zhou:
So, I think a lot of the times, it’s much easier to pretend things are okay until we absolutely cannot function. So, a lot of the times, I [inaudible 00:07:52] students, they already can’t get out of bed, or they’re already failed multiple classes, then they cut off from connection from family and friends, and they’re failing out of school. So, a lot of the times I wish they could come and talk to me earlier, rather than wait till so late.

Christine Zhou:
Yeah. And so, that’s one of the common challenges, or maybe myths, or maybe the cons, why people are hesitant to come to counseling. And also, I think counseling is a privilege. And I think, even in this country, I would say counseling is a service that it’s a privilege to people. It’s not something like you have to go to see a doctor if you get sick, like basic medical needs. A lot of the times that, because it costs a lot of money, so if you actually want to go talk to a counselor, paying out of pocket, it’s over a hundred bucks an hour, and some people even charge 250. I mean, that’s a crazy amount of money. Just talk to somebody for an hour, right? And also, it takes time.

Christine Zhou:
You have to commit to it. A lot of my students say, “I could barely eat and sleep. How would I be able to actually take an hour to come talk to you?” And also, sometimes student say, “I don’t really know if talking to somebody is actually going to help me because I’m not really sure if they’re going to actually understand my situation,” so I think all these are actually very valid, and that’s what prevents people from actually making the effort to seek health services. And even if you say, finally decide to talk to somebody, and then when you are entering the room, or you’re on the phone, or on the Zoom, I think back in their ahead is, “Can I really trust this person,” right? Counseling is not… I mean, the kind of questions we ask people, a lot of my students say, “I’ve never really told anybody.”

Christine Zhou:
So, there is a risk you’re taking of opening up and being vulnerable in the sessions. And also, back in your head, you still have that question, “What if it doesn’t work? What if it doesn’t help me? What if I will be disappointed or rejected?” So, it is not as easy that if you go see a physical doctor, they ask you, “Oh, where do you feel the pain? What do you eat?” And people usually have less hesitation to open up and talk about those things. And also, I have to acknowledge that sometimes it may not be a good match, even if you totally go open, take a risk, and you open up, and you share your story, but because maybe the counselor has a different style, maybe a different personality, a different approach.

Christine Zhou:
It is not one size fits all. And so, it’s a little bit different. I use analogy like if you go to a surgeon and they’re doing surgery, and a lot of the times the procedure is much more precise, objective, because you are using the tools to do that, but in counseling, we’re using ourselves. And so, the counselor is the tool, and then to be able to help you. Even for me, over the course of 10 years, and then I connect with most students, but honestly speaking, some of the students say, “I’ve tried, but I prefer to talk to a counselor of a different background. Thanks for trying, but I just feel more comfortable.” And I think, in those cases, it’s totally understandable and it will help you to find somebody that actually makes you more comfortable.

Christine Zhou:
I was just thinking about like why over the years, a lot of my students, despite knowing these resources, why wouldn’t they access? Or what are some of the cons or myths of going to counseling?

Laura Vogt:
I think it’s great to be able to recognize some of those reasons why students might not want to come in. I mean, I know definitely the stigma of being weak is a number one thing that we hear quite often and it’s just, you’re not.

Christine Zhou:
Yeah, absolutely. I do want to say that, in order to flip the coin and talking about a little bit of why you should, despite of all these hesitations and stigma, like I said, like Laura said, being weak and actually I would say, the mere fact in your work worked up the courage to come and ask for help, that shows that you are incredibly strong because it takes a lot of courage and strength, and to actually make that first step, and then to talk to somebody, and vocalize that and say, “Hey, I’m struggling. And I feel like I need some help.” And I feel like that’s actually the first step towards change. Because a lot of the times, if you don’t even want to acknowledge there is a problem, how are you going to solve it, right? And so, I really feel like the facing the challenge, acknowledging the challenge is, I mean, pretty much half of the work is done by the time you started to realize this is something that I want to do, I want to change.

Christine Zhou:
I also wanted to sort of talk about this concept, what is strong? I think a lot of our students growing up, because a lot of our students have a sort of challenging life and navigating a lot of… I mean, they’re survivors, and then there’s a very resilient. And so, a lot of the times, the concept is that, “If I just try harder,” and that’s actually why the students were able to overcome a lot of challenges, but I think when it comes to mental health, emotional wellbeing, a lot of times, in this kind of tough, just push through it, this kind of mentality, is actually hurting you because a lot of the times when you are struggling, when you are feeling a little depressed and anxious, or somehow I’m struggling, I’m feeling vulnerable.

Christine Zhou:
And if you have that harsh and critical voice and say, “Well, why can’t you do it? Why can’t just push through it? You should be able to do it. You’re weak, if you don’t do that.” And all these kind of voices is going to actually intensify the symptoms, and actually makes you even sort of struggle more.

Laura Vogt:
That makes me think… You hear that word, resilient, a lot, that everyone has to be resilient, and resilient doesn’t mean forcing yourself through something. It means taking care of yourself to make sure you can get through it in a healthy way.

Christine Zhou:
Absolutely. And I think, a lot of the times, it’s not just on your own. I think that concept needs to be changed. I understand a lot of our students have been on their own all their lives, and because for whatever reason, there’s not a lot of people there for them, so they kind of just like, “I can beat it. I can do them by myself,” but coming to Berkeley is really a huge challenge because academically, the speed of the classes, and the competition, and the pressures, the stress, right? I think a lot of the times when people find, “Okay, I can barely handle it and now I’m like collapsing.” But, the thing is, even the strongest person in the world, they would not be able to overcome all the challenges in life unless they have a solid support system.

Christine Zhou:
And which means that you actually have people in your lives, and you can go to and talk to, whether that’s family, or friends, or colleagues, or mentors. And so, these are the group of people that’s actually going to be there with you to help you to go through things. And I think that’s incredible important, actually a task, when we are sort of, I mean, if you think about the college, it’s a separation, you are a young adult, you’re from a adolescent, and emerging young adult, you’re growing, your first time leaving home. And so, you are no longer just with your parents and siblings all the time, and now you’re on your own. It is time to create your own connections and the chosen family, right? Who do you want to make friends with, or who do you want to date, or who do you want to hang out with, or make projects together, talk to or seek out?

Christine Zhou:
I think that is a very, actually challenging, task. And a lot of the times that students have problems navigating and they get hurt, right? And that’s why we have breakups, and we have fights, and conflicts, but what the concept of being strong, I’ve seen this student, the most resilient student I’ve seen, the most successful ones, I always ask them this question, “So who do you talk to if you’re struggling?” They give me a list of 10 names. And I say, “Well, what do you do if you’re not happy?” And they give me 20 things they can do in their lives. And so, the more tools, the more resources, the more people you have in your life, the stronger you are. I think that’s one of the things I wanted to really focus on. Life is not really… We’re going to face challenges in life.

Christine Zhou:
It’s not about not ever failing, but it’s how do you bounce back? How do you learn from those mistakes? And in terms of another thing, I’ve talked a little bit about a lack of access resources, right? And so, here on campus, fortunately, you do have access, and actually it’s free. And so, we have a main office, a Counseling and Psychological Services, which is located on the third floor of the Tang Center. That’s our main office and we have counselors on call pretty much from 10 to 5, Monday through Friday. And so, you can call on the same day, and actually, we changed our model. These days, when you call, you can actually get a same day appointment. It’s much faster, quicker access. And then, we have the satellite office at COE. We are at 241 Bechtel. This is for undergraduate students.

Christine Zhou:
We have three counselors here. And then, I describe, how do you utilize? And a satellite office is more like a primary care office. And so, it’s not something urgent, you really don’t need to talk to somebody on the same day, but you’re kind of curious and have something I’m going through. I kind of want to find somebody who knows maybe a little bit more about engineering, not only just about mental health, but also about the college, the system, the resources within the college, just want to have a conversation, and I can wait. I mean, it’s not like I need to talk to them right now, and I can make appointment, maybe next week. That’s more appropriate for the satellite office. And so, I do want to say that because our model has changed, the clinical model, it used to be we have eight sessions for free per year for all the students, but right now, we’re changing the model into, it’s called One At a Time, it’s called OAT, so what does that mean? One at a time.

Christine Zhou:
So, which means that we will be able to talk to students pretty quickly. If it’s not within the same day, it’s probably going to be within the same week, so we will be able to get… It used to be by about midterm, everybody’s full. Then, you’re going to take three weeks to getting. But then, at that time, it’s almost finals. Right now, the turnaround is much faster. We have a quick access, but there’s no expectation, or maybe not necessarily opportunity, for ongoing treatment. So, basically, if you think about traditional counseling, that’s when you talk to them once a week, ongoing. You could do that for years, but our model is more about let’s talk and let’s forget about all the history.

Christine Zhou:
Let’s assess where you are right now. Let’s brainstorm ideas about solutions, and then at the end of the session, we’ll talk about, do you still need to follow up? Do you feel like you’re good for now? You want to try a little of things, and if you try a little bit of stuff and you wanted to connect with us, and so feel free to call back, and then we’ll talk again. This model is that it works perfectly. Actually, I would say for the majority of the Berkeley students, because we actually did research, we look at how often students access services, the highest number of students actually access this counseling services about one to three times, and actually one being the highest number. So, actually, it fits, but if you do have an ongoing therapy need, we can also meet, and we can try to talk about how do we make it happen. More than likely, it’s going to be through community resources, whether it’s through our insurance or low fee clinics, we’ll have a conversation and we’ll help you to get connected.

Christine Zhou:
The last thing I wanted to say, is that I talk about this idea, “Can I trust the therapist?” For people who are not familiar, I want to talk about confidentiality. Counseling is a little bit different than you go talk to your advisor, or a professor, because it’s confidential. So unless you disclose you’re seriously thinking about hurting yourself or another person, or if there’s abuse of a child, vulnerable adult, or dependent, and those are cases, then we’ll have to bridge. Other than that, what happens in the counseling stays in the counseling. And also, talking to a counselor versus talking to friends and family, is a little bit different in a sense the counselor is more neutral and they don’t really have… A lot of the times, I’ve had students telling me that their friends just have very strong opinions, and this is what you should do, rather than actually trying to understand their perspective.

Christine Zhou:
The counseling process, the first thing is to listen to you and to really understand where you’re coming from, from a neutral perspective, and also create a safe place for you to reflect, and for you to think about what is the best strategy, and what do I want to do about my life, because I believe you are the expert in being you, because I only meet you for 25 minutes. I wouldn’t possibly know who you are.

Christine Zhou:
My job is to really help you to create a space where you could engage in some kind of self-reflection and trying to find the solution that works best for you. A lot of the times, the counselors need the students help. And so, I tell my students, “I need you to help me, to help you. If you don’t understand you, [inaudible 00:22:35] to actually help you,” so it’s a collaborative relationship and it’s a place that’s actually more for you to figure out what’s the best solution. It’s true. There might be not be a good match. It takes time to build relationships, connections. Also, that you can have a lot of power, in terms of what you want to do in counseling. What do you want to talk about and how do you utilize the time that you have with the counselor.

Laura Vogt:
And where are the different entry points outside of maybe counseling of where they could get services, or resources, or learn more about resources?

Christine Zhou:
Yeah. Actually, that’s another thing. Sometimes students come to talk to me about academic struggles, right? I’m not an academic advisor, but we do know relatively, because we’ve worked with students for so many years, and so we know other resources. For example, one of the things that a lot of students don’t know is DSP program, is Disabled Student Program. And so, when you have a diagnosis, it doesn’t matter if it’s a physical health, or mental health, and you will be able to register with DSP. With DSP comes with a lot of accommodations. For example, you will be able to reduce course load. And then, sometimes, you can get more times on exam. Sometimes then, you will get extra notes. You can take exam in a separate room, free of distractions.

Christine Zhou:
You could maybe get more time on the exam. So, there’s a lot of benefit and a lot of students that they really struggle, but they really don’t even know that DSP services exist. And also, we can connect you with other programmings like we have a center, we have offering tutoring services. We can also connect you with advisors. And so, the idea is that then we all work together to support you, rather than individually. And so, we can sort of create this kind of what I call a support system for you, right? And so, each one of the staff members, we can collaborate and we can help you together.

Laura Vogt:
I noticed that you wrote in our notes here, that at the end of the day, it’s the students decisions.

Christine Zhou:
Yeah.

Laura Vogt:
What is your message that you want to give them about that?

Christine Zhou:
Yeah. I want to say that you cannot really force anybody into counseling and it’s not going to work. I’ve had students told me that they were as minors, when they were little, and their parents or teachers, they dragged them into talk to a counselor and just never worked. So, I wanted to really emphasis on that. I mean, your autonomy and your readiness. And so, not a really good question is does any one of us need counseling? I would say probably 90% of the people can use that services, but it’s also about, are you ready to talk about it? Are you ready to make changes? Are you ready to actually do some hard work? And also, sometimes, I’ve had students come to counseling. They say, “Well, what happened? I feel like I’m getting worse. I’m even more sad. I’m more anxious,” so I also want to normalize that.

Christine Zhou:
And a lot of the times, it gets worse before it actually gets better. The reason is that, when you are sort of holding onto a lot of the stuff, and you never had people to talk about, and when you open it up, sometimes you could experience a lot of emotions, and you could even feel bad. But then, you work, you are not alone. And so, you’re not doing this by yourself. And so, you work with a counselor who will help you to try to figure out what kind of coping mechanism you have, what kind of strategy you could use, and what kind of support you can seek out. A lot of the times, I think it’s much easier to bury things and pretend everything is okay.

Christine Zhou:
And also, I also hear this from a lot of students, and they say, “Everybody else seems to be doing great. I’m the only one,” right? And then, they say, “All my roommates, all my classmates, all my friends, nobody seems to be struggling,” but that’s really far from true. Everybody struggles. We all struggle. Particularly, I think the pandemic is such a humbling experience, right? And it sort of literally affects every human being on this planet. And we all struggle. I mean, even as a counselor, I like people say, “Well, you must know everything, what you do. It’s the pandemic.” Not necessarily. If I have to work from home with two toddlers, my parents, and everybody, that drove me crazy. I felt like, “Man, I’m getting depressed. I can’t get out of the house. Can’t go out to eat.”

Christine Zhou:
So we are all human beings, and it’s just part of life. I mean, being a human, we struggle. And so, a lot of the times, I tell my students, “I can’t really rewrite your story.” I mean, what happened? We can’t really change. A lot of the times, even students come talk to me, what can you do? “Well, I don’t have a magic wand and kind of change your situation, or come up with like a huge amount of money and solve all the problems, but I think what we can do, is we can have a different perspective, or interpretation, of what the story is about, and what happened, and what’s the impact of what happened affect you moving forward?” And so, we all know the childhood memories, and then something happened when you were five. When you were 10 years old, you look back, you might feel differently about it. When you were 20 years ago, looking back at what happened at five, you probably feel even more differently. Maybe when you were 30, and imagine 40, and 50 years old, right?

Christine Zhou:
What happened didn’t change, but how you feel about it might be completely different. I also want to say that college is like the perfect time of your life, where everything, anything is possible. I used to work at VA. Those particularly from Vietnam vet’s. They tend to… I remember I was talking to them, and they tell me stories of what happened in the war, and all that kind of stuff. It’s almost like they’re stuck in that time in their lives. And it’s really hard to help them to get out of it. And then, they will always tell me, “Christie, I’m 50 something, I’m 60 years old. This is who I am. That’s it. This is end of my life. It is what it is,” but I never got that sense working with college students.

Christine Zhou:
You are 18, 19, 20. Often, sometimes, I have students who had a first breakup, and they tell me, “Oh my gosh, I’m going to never be able to find anybody for the rest of my life. I will end up alone, and I will die sad, and whatever.” And I say all these things, and I look at their chart. I was like, “Just hold on one second. How old are you?” They’re like, “19.” And I was like, “You really think by 19, and this is the rest of your life. I mean, I don’t know, another 70, 80 years is going to be like this?”

Christine Zhou:
And so, I really feel like there’s infinite possibilities at this age. So, no matter what kind of challenges you bump into, you will be able to overcome it with the right support, with the resources, with yourself, and friends, and family, and you will be able to overcome. So, yeah. And if you feel like at some point you’re like, “Oh, my friends are busy. My family don’t understand. I don’t have anybody to talk to,” remember to give us a call. We are always here. We’re here to listen, we’re here to support.

Laura Vogt:
We’re going to make sure that we have links for University Health Services or CAPS, and also include a link for the group’s page. And then, definitely our engineering satellite office webpage.

Christine Zhou:
Absolutely.

Laura Vogt:
Well, thank you so much for being here today. This information is so… I always feel like when I get to interview you, I’m like, “I needed to hear that.”

Christine Zhou:
Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of the times, and it’s really hard because there’s so much resources, and then when you are first starting, you’re so busy and just catching up, right? Academic stuff is overwhelming, so a lot of the times people don’t even know services and how to access. And so, I would say feel free to check it out, and office is 241 Bechtel, and there’s a phone number listed on there. Just give us a call and we’ll go from there.

Laura Vogt:
Well, thank you for your time today.

Christine Zhou:
You’re very welcome.

Laura Vogt:
And thank you everyone for tuning in to the Not So Secret Guide to Being a Berkeley Engineer. I look forward to podcasting with you throughout the summer.